I'm in an Astronomy class this Summer, and so far it's pretty cool. The prof. is nice, articulate, and not too hardcore, and everyone else in the class seems very friendly and extroverted. I met one fellow, we'll call him John, and he seemed like your typical college kid, friendly, smart, interested in meeting people. During our last class we did an exercise where we figured out how old the Universe is (it's actually pretty easy, and crazy interesting, it's around 13.5 billion years old). John, who was sitting next to me, rolled his eyes when we got our result, and I just kind of blew it off. After class, however, he and I were talking a little and I mentioned that I liked the lecture and thought the exercise was pretty cool.
"Yeah, I guess, I don't really believe it though." was his response.
Turns out John is an evangelical Christian. This is fine, I've been in this situation before. I have lots of Christian friends who will have polite little debates with me, it keeps things interesting.
John, however, wasn't quite like my friends.
He takes the Bible EXTREMELY literally, like many Christians do, and so therefore doesn't believe that the earth is any older than a few thousand years.
Now, I'm all about understanding that there are things that Science can give us, and there are things that philosophy and religion can give us, but I'm also a firm believer that there are some things that our collective common sense should just tell us.
The Earth is not only a few thousand years old. Sorry, John, but you're wrong.
After a bit of a falling out, I still can't believe that people take the Bible that literally. It's got me pondering some questions that I'd like to ask my Christian friends here:
1. Do you believe that the Earth is only a few thousand years old?
2. Do you believe that we are all common descendants of Adam and Eve?
3. Do you think that the stories in the Bible are all literally true? Or do you think they're metaphorical, or a mixture of both?
4. Do you think that anyone who hasn't accepted Jesus Christ as their Saviour will go to Hell upon death?
5. Do you believe that gay men and women are choosing to be that way?
6. Do you think that Science is out to "get" religion?
I know those are a lot of different questions covering a lot of different categories, but I'm incredibly curious about all of them. I'm just trying to understand the average Christian mindset a little more.
Instead of a quote, I'll leave you with a clip from one of the best movies in history: Inherit the Wind.
1. no 2. ehhh... idk. not really. 3. i think they're mostly metaphorical, but that many have truth in them, albeit perhaps exaggerated. 4. ugh. i don't like to think that. the bible contradicts itself in places on that subject... 5. no 6. of course not. people who think that are afraid and insecure in their faith.
Reminds me of the mock-religion Last Thursdayism and the Omphalos hypothesis.
@B2yan_C - That's crazy that you mention that, because I kept thinking of the Omphalos hypothesis when I was watching that too.
Awesome clip.
lol I don't even bother arguing with people that seriously believe that the universe is only a 'few thousands of years old'
It's just ridiculous. Anyone who is even mildly educated in physics understands that this is impossible, so a debate with someone like that would pretty much be..... yea......... waste of my time...
1. yes
2. yes
3. I believe all the Bible is true. It was written by men that were inspird by God, God is thuth and cannot lie so therefore it is true.
4. That is what jesus himself said so, yes i do believe that.@hopeful_mrs_lysacek - the Bible never contradicts itself, Im not sure what you are referring to in your answer to question 4.
5. Yes they do choose that lifestyle. They choose not to believe that Jesus can set them free from that desire. so it is a chose they make.
6. Not all of science but much of it seems to be doing that.
@ken3111960 - So you don't agree that God could have made the first few days a few million years?
Do you think that Satan put fossils on the earth? Or do you believe that (for some reason that's beyond me) God would have engaged the Omphalos hypothesis and created the earth with the appearance of age?
@YossariansWingman - Could God have made the first few days a few million years long? Yes, the reason i say that is that is that God cannot be limited. God is omnipotent, however if we read the Bible with an open mind we see that God is a God of order, therefore we must believe that he would have used the same "time table " in creation as in the rest of the Bible.
No satan did not put fossils on the earth, i believe that this happened at the time of the flood. Read Genesis chapters 6-8:14. God covered the earth with water and destroyed all life that was on the earth, when the waters receded the face of the earth was somewhat different than before, so now some of the creatures that were on the earth were buried in the mud and then this mud dried some turning into rock and there you have the fossils. as for science saying that it takes millions of years for these rocks to form, this is a theory. What is a theory ? Look it up in the dictionary. The Bible on the other hand has proven to be true and I would much rather accept that to be true in the creation account than to believe science when science disagrees with the Bible.
It frustrates me to no end. A friend of mine tried to tell me that the books in the Bible were the only books written through divine inspiration because they were the only ones n the Bible, but he balked at my question regarding the books that were left out.
I told him that his own religion says "one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day" (2 Peter 3:8) but he wouldn't even concede that the "six days" could have been an indeterminate amount of time.
It's been too long since I watched that classic. Thanks for posting it. I don't debate with "believers" any more. I'm satisfied that evolution will take care of the likes of them. I was told once by a co-worker that the end was near so I got up from my desk and started for the door. He asked where I was going and I told him I was going home to smoke a joint and relax while I waited...............He was the same person who almost went in to a catatonic state when I asked him if Adam and Eve had belly buttons. hehe.
@hapax23 - Haha, you're very welcome, it's a fantastic movie. I agree, it may not be in my lifetime, or even my children's, but I think that religion, in the sense we know it today, will die out in the not-too-distant future. Haha, that's funny about you and your co-worker. I recently read a poll that said that around a quarter of Americans believe that they will see Jesus return in their lifetimes. It really is quite odd.
A few thousand years old? That's ridiculous. "Because we know that dinosaur bones were really planted by beelzebub."
http://controversy.wearscience.com/design/devil/
@what_a_scarlet_woman - I love the word "Beelzebub" it's so much more fun to say than "satan" or "the devil" or "lucifer."
Here's my personal (Christian) take on this:
1) Given how in biblical studies, a day could easily be read as a thousand years (maybe even an eon), or possibly vice-versa, I would say that I try not to make such a huge stink out of this since I would still be at doctrinal peace with this paradox--provided that it doesn't necessarily means evolution. Micro-evolution on the other hand, I will still accept however...
2) Concerning Adam and Eve as a common descendant; well, we have to start from somewhere!
3) Well, concerning whether or not the Bible is metaphorical or literal, I've been debating this for the Christian life of me... to the point I concluded that perhaps it's all the issue of context, such as what does God meant (via one of the prophets/apostles) regarding the passage about plucking one's eye out (if one of them causes the other to sin). Or to perhaps cutting to the chase, I would/will rather trust God in helping me out with understanding what He really means in what he says in His Word, as opposed to trying to interpret it myself--both literally and metaphorically since historically-speaking (with the Protestant-Catholic wars of Europe's past), wasn't much of the sectarian strife born out of the sinful predisposition to interpret God's word out their own (i.e, mortal) understanding? I mean, there's a good reason why The Bible said to not lean on your own understanding!* *see aforementioned example... Besides, at my age I decided that maybe the best way to best understand/interpret The Bible--even with all of its alleged "contradictions," is to continually trust in Him (God), i.e, a personal relationship, as uttered tirelessly in so many sermons across the Christian world. It's kind of like in any other romantic/platonic relationship here on Earth, one will have to get to know the other person more intimately before they can better understand what he/she meant, which then leads to...
4) Concerning the highly contentious behind John 3:16 (and its many other variant passages), I would rather see this in this light: Instead of the usual fire-and-brimstone synonyms of not accepting Jesus as Lord & Savior, I see it rather more as understanding how far God had to painstakingly/graciously provide us not only the most available way into Heaven, but likewise with comprehending life in general (so as to how to enjoy our human existence, made for joy instead of being a survivalist creature of instinct, kind of like that quote in the WWII/Holocaust-era true life movie, Defiance. There's probably more to it, but that will lead us to a more complex thesis for future discussion...
5) Regarding if LGBT are born that way or willingly chose this lifestyle, let me just say that not too long ago, when I read an L.A. Times film review on the provocative, gay-themed drama called, "Fixing Frank," it offers this thematic/moral premise, questioning if there's a pill that will make you straight, would/will you take it? Hypothetically speaking, even if homosexuality is proven to be genetic, what's our sure bet that there won't be some "innovative" medical breakthrough, that will provide gay/lesbian/bisexual, even transgendered folks the option to be straight? That will lead us to that big, eternal question of free will--even in the age of identity politics of genetic predisposition.... well that, and how recently humanity achieved the near-impossible of mapping out the whole human Genome system; that will explain why Southern Baptist Convention leader, Dr. Albert (or is it Alfred?) Mohler, got into some PR hot water when he suggests that with the success of the Genome project, maybe fixing gays through scientific (read: genetic) means won't be an antithesis to Biblical principles!
6) What would you exactly mean by science trying to "get" religion? Is it science trying to understand/reconcile with religion (especially with the Judeo-Christian faith), or perhaps science trying to usurp religion? As of late, I've been made aware that there's a growing, but still taboo group within the greater scientific community, that's questioning if you will, the dogma of atheist-inclined/based science--to the point many within the (Judeo-)Christian community have opined that evolution, if not (also) atheism as a whole, has ironically become a religion onto itself! Heck, even if you analyze carefully some of the pro-evolution rhetoric found... well, just about anywhere, there's always a sense of taking a leap of faith, in accepting it (evolution) as fact--no more or less differently than those on the creationist/Intelligent Design side of the debate aisle! ...and I haven't even mentioned how many of the great scientific minds of Western Civilization's past, got their scientific breakthroughs via (ironically still) the Judeo-Christian faith/tradition! *(just check out the recent, History Channel special on the cultural impact of The Protestant Reformation!)
I guess that's why as of late, I'm surmising that much of the pro-Darwinist camp is starting to resemble more and more like the very, "religious fundamentalist" inquisitors, they fought against! So I guess being a Christian nowadays puts me in the same analogous position as Galileo?(!)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zwh79L3W8vk
@shochiku - Very thorough, very well thought out. Thanks so much! I feel a bit enlightened. I'm learning a lot.
i'm a christian
1. Do you believe that the Earth is only a few thousand years old?
i think that scientific evidence has proven that earth is much more than a few thousand years old.
2. Do you believe that we are all common descendants of Adam and Eve?
yes, i do.
3. Do you think that the stories in the Bible are all literally true? Or do you think they're metaphorical, or a mixture of both?
i think it's a mixture. some are parables, given to provide examples to live by, while others are literal.
4. Do you think that anyone who hasn't accepted Jesus Christ as their Saviour will go to Hell upon death?
that's the way i understand it, as much as i hate to think about it.
5. Do you believe that gay men and women are choosing to be that way?
no, i don't. but i also think that they can try to fight urges if they choose to.
6. Do you think that Science is out to "get" religion?
no, but i know people who feel that way in the church. it's sad really.
<3 micalyn
@vetpet91 - Thanks! You're the first non-polarizing answer I've had so far. You're who I was looking for. Now I know you exist. Yay!
you're welcome. :) i tend to believe that neither side should be opposing the other. i don't see why science and faith can't go together.
Comments (20)
1. no
2. ehhh... idk. not really.
3. i think they're mostly metaphorical, but that many have truth in them, albeit perhaps exaggerated.
4. ugh. i don't like to think that. the bible contradicts itself in places on that subject...
5. no
6. of course not. people who think that are afraid and insecure in their faith.
ha! there ya go!
@hopeful_mrs_lysacek - I like 100% of your answers. Thank you =).
Reminds me of the mock-religion Last Thursdayism and the Omphalos hypothesis.
@B2yan_C - That's crazy that you mention that, because I kept thinking of the Omphalos hypothesis when I was watching that too.
Awesome clip.
lol I don't even bother arguing with people that seriously believe that the universe is only a 'few thousands of years old'
It's just ridiculous. Anyone who is even mildly educated in physics understands that this is impossible, so a debate with someone like that would pretty much be..... yea......... waste of my time...
1. yes
2. yes
3. I believe all the Bible is true. It was written by men that were inspird by God, God is thuth and cannot lie so therefore it is true.
4. That is what jesus himself said so, yes i do believe that.@hopeful_mrs_lysacek - the Bible never contradicts itself, Im not sure what you are referring to in your answer to question 4.
5. Yes they do choose that lifestyle. They choose not to believe that Jesus can set them free from that desire. so it is a chose they make.
6. Not all of science but much of it seems to be doing that.
@ken3111960 - So you don't agree that God could have made the first few days a few million years?
Do you think that Satan put fossils on the earth? Or do you believe that (for some reason that's beyond me) God would have engaged the Omphalos hypothesis and created the earth with the appearance of age?@YossariansWingman - Could God have made the first few days a few million years long? Yes, the reason i say that is that is that God cannot be limited. God is omnipotent, however if we read the Bible with an open mind we see that God is a God of order, therefore we must believe that he would have used the same "time table " in creation as in the rest of the Bible.
No satan did not put fossils on the earth, i believe that this happened at the time of the flood. Read Genesis chapters 6-8:14. God covered the earth with water and destroyed all life that was on the earth, when the waters receded the face of the earth was somewhat different than before, so now some of the creatures that were on the earth were buried in the mud and then this mud dried some turning into rock and there you have the fossils. as for science saying that it takes millions of years for these rocks to form, this is a theory. What is a theory ? Look it up in the dictionary. The Bible on the other hand has proven to be true and I would much rather accept that to be true in the creation account than to believe science when science disagrees with the Bible.
It frustrates me to no end. A friend of mine tried to tell me that the books in the Bible were the only books written through divine inspiration because they were the only ones n the Bible, but he balked at my question regarding the books that were left out.
I told him that his own religion says "one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day" (2 Peter 3:8) but he wouldn't even concede that the "six days" could have been an indeterminate amount of time.
It's been too long since I watched that classic. Thanks for posting it. I don't debate with "believers" any more. I'm satisfied that evolution will take care of the likes of them. I was told once by a co-worker that the end was near so I got up from my desk and started for the door. He asked where I was going and I told him I was going home to smoke a joint and relax while I waited...............He was the same person who almost went in to a catatonic state when I asked him if Adam and Eve had belly buttons. hehe.
@hapax23 - Haha, you're very welcome, it's a fantastic movie. I agree, it may not be in my lifetime, or even my children's, but I think that religion, in the sense we know it today, will die out in the not-too-distant future. Haha, that's funny about you and your co-worker. I recently read a poll that said that around a quarter of Americans believe that they will see Jesus return in their lifetimes. It really is quite odd.
@ken3111960 - Ahhh, I see.
A few thousand years old? That's ridiculous. "Because we know that dinosaur bones were really planted by beelzebub."
http://controversy.wearscience.com/design/devil/
@what_a_scarlet_woman - I love the word "Beelzebub" it's so much more fun to say than "satan" or "the devil" or "lucifer."
Here's my personal (Christian) take on this:
1) Given how in
biblical studies, a day could easily be read as a thousand years (maybe
even an eon), or possibly vice-versa, I would say that I try not to
make such a huge stink out of this since I would still be at doctrinal
peace with this paradox--provided that it doesn't necessarily means
evolution. Micro-evolution on the other hand, I will still accept
however...
2) Concerning Adam and Eve as a common descendant; well, we have to start from somewhere!
3)
Well, concerning whether or not the Bible is metaphorical or literal,
I've been debating this for the Christian life of me... to the point I
concluded that perhaps it's all the issue of context, such as what does
God meant (via one of the prophets/apostles) regarding the passage
about plucking one's eye out (if one of them causes the other to sin).
Or to perhaps cutting to the chase, I would/will rather trust God in
helping me out with understanding what He really means in what he says
in His Word, as opposed to trying to interpret it myself--both
literally and metaphorically since historically-speaking (with the
Protestant-Catholic wars of Europe's past), wasn't much of the
sectarian strife born out of the sinful predisposition to interpret
God's word out their own (i.e, mortal) understanding? I mean, there's a good reason why The Bible said to not lean on your own understanding!*
*see aforementioned example...
Besides,
at my age I decided that maybe the best way to best
understand/interpret The Bible--even with all of its alleged
"contradictions," is to continually trust in Him (God), i.e, a personal
relationship, as uttered tirelessly in so many sermons across the
Christian world. It's kind of like in any other romantic/platonic
relationship here on Earth, one will have to get to know the other
person more intimately before they can better understand what he/she
meant, which then leads to...
4) Concerning the highly
contentious behind John 3:16 (and its many other variant passages), I
would rather see this in this light: Instead of the usual
fire-and-brimstone synonyms of not accepting Jesus as Lord &
Savior, I see it rather more as understanding how far God had to
painstakingly/graciously provide us not only the most available way
into Heaven, but likewise with comprehending life in general (so as to
how to enjoy our human existence, made for joy instead of being a
survivalist creature of instinct, kind of like that quote in the
WWII/Holocaust-era true life movie, Defiance. There's probably more to
it, but that will lead us to a more complex thesis for future
discussion...
5) Regarding if LGBT are born that way or willingly
chose this lifestyle, let me just say that not too long ago, when I
read an L.A. Times film review on the provocative, gay-themed drama
called, "Fixing Frank," it offers this thematic/moral premise,
questioning if there's a pill that will make you straight, would/will
you take it? Hypothetically speaking, even if homosexuality
is proven to be genetic, what's our sure bet that there won't be some
"innovative" medical breakthrough, that will provide
gay/lesbian/bisexual, even transgendered folks the option to be
straight? That will lead us to that big, eternal question of free
will--even in the age of identity politics of genetic
predisposition.... well that, and how recently humanity achieved the
near-impossible of mapping out the whole human Genome system; that will
explain why Southern Baptist Convention leader, Dr. Albert (or is it
Alfred?) Mohler, got into some PR hot water when he suggests that with
the success of the Genome project, maybe fixing gays through scientific
(read: genetic) means won't be an antithesis to Biblical principles!
6)
What would you exactly mean by science trying to "get" religion? Is it
science trying to understand/reconcile with religion (especially with
the Judeo-Christian faith), or perhaps science trying to usurp
religion? As of late, I've been made aware that there's a growing, but
still taboo group within the greater scientific community, that's
questioning if you will, the dogma of atheist-inclined/based
science--to the point many within the (Judeo-)Christian community have
opined that evolution, if not (also) atheism as a whole, has ironically
become a religion onto itself! Heck, even if you analyze carefully some
of the pro-evolution rhetoric found... well, just about anywhere,
there's always a sense of taking a leap of faith, in accepting it
(evolution) as fact--no more or less differently than those on the
creationist/Intelligent Design side of the debate aisle!
...and I
haven't even mentioned how many of the great scientific minds of
Western Civilization's past, got their scientific breakthroughs via
(ironically still) the Judeo-Christian faith/tradition! *(just check
out the recent, History Channel special on the cultural impact of The
Protestant Reformation!)
I guess that's why as of late, I'm surmising that much of the pro-Darwinist camp is starting to resemble more and more like the very, "religious fundamentalist" inquisitors, they fought against! So I guess being a Christian nowadays puts me in the same analogous position as Galileo?(!)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zwh79L3W8vk
@shochiku - Very thorough, very well thought out. Thanks so much! I feel a bit enlightened. I'm learning a lot.
i'm a christian
1. Do you believe that the Earth is only a few thousand years old?
i think that scientific evidence has proven that earth is much more than a few thousand years old.
2. Do you believe that we are all common descendants of Adam and Eve?
yes, i do.
3. Do you think that the stories in the Bible are all literally true? Or do you think they're metaphorical, or a mixture of both?
i think it's a mixture. some are parables, given to provide examples to live by, while others are literal.
4. Do you think that anyone who hasn't accepted Jesus Christ as their Saviour will go to Hell upon death?
that's the way i understand it, as much as i hate to think about it.
5. Do you believe that gay men and women are choosing to be that way?
no, i don't. but i also think that they can try to fight urges if they choose to.
6. Do you think that Science is out to "get" religion?
no, but i know people who feel that way in the church. it's sad really.
<3 micalyn
@vetpet91 - Thanks! You're the first non-polarizing answer I've had so far. You're who I was looking for. Now I know you exist. Yay!
you're welcome. :) i tend to believe that neither side should be opposing the other. i don't see why science and faith can't go together.
<3 micalyn